Tuesnight In Berkeley {2/28}: Truth From Palestine, Alison Weir Speaks

[FreeSpirit_uk]

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians,

Syrians

and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for

political

reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity....

yes,

the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only

tactical

purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the
continuing battle against Israel."
- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and

member of its

Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)

White South Africans tend towards Jewish Israeli sympathies usually,
simply because our history inclines us that way. For starters,
Afrikaners identified strongly with the Biblical Jews as "people of
the book". Then later in our history Israel was one of the few
countries which did open business, including arms deals, with us
during the apartheid era, and hence was seen as a friend. Another
thing is that Jews were perceived first as white, then only as Jews
in apartheid South Africa.

There is also a growing support for Israel in the UK. The Islamic
terrorists have validated what the Israelis have been telling us all for
years.

Over the years I have encountered relatively little anti-semitism in
South Africa until the recent waves of anti-Muslim feelings. But
what has been interesting to note is how quickly the pro-Israeli
feelings have subsided into apathy on the subject, only to be
resurrected by anti-Arab feelings. Our new government certainly
ditched Israel very early on in the process.

I have only once personally experienced anti-semitism. It was a year or two
ago in north London, where together with some of my colleagues we were
headed on foot to a restaurant. Some of our group were very clearly
Jewish - actually Israelis visiting the UK for a few days. We passed a
Muslim looking man who suddenly lashed out at one of them. Before the
strike could hit, the Israeli had the guy pinned to the side of the car like
a squashed fly. After a few minutes of thinking about what to do with him
we decided to let him go - we didn't want our evening spoiled but this
incident. The controlled manner in which he was released was very
impressive - there was just no ways that he would have been able to pull a
knife out on us or anything like that. I subsequently discovered that all
Israelis undergo training from young in self defence techniques known as
Krav Maga. I was so impressed that today my wife, children and myself are
receiving ongoing training in it. As a footnote to this, the self control
which the Israeli's demonstrated was entirely praiseworthy. The Muslim was
not roughed up in any way - he was only subdued. Good people.

[Miriam Cohen]

Post by FreeSpirit_uk

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians,

Syrians

and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for

political

reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity....

yes,

the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only

tactical

purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the
continuing battle against Israel."
- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and

member of its

Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)

White South Africans tend towards Jewish Israeli sympathies usually,
simply because our history inclines us that way. For starters,
Afrikaners identified strongly with the Biblical Jews as "people of
the book". Then later in our history Israel was one of the few
countries which did open business, including arms deals, with us
during the apartheid era, and hence was seen as a friend. Another
thing is that Jews were perceived first as white, then only as Jews
in apartheid South Africa.

There is also a growing support for Israel in the UK. The Islamic

Funny how that growing support hasn't changed the BBC from basically
being a mouthpiece for Muslims.

Post by FreeSpirit_uk
terrorists have validated what the Israelis have been telling us all for
years.

We hate to say we told you so :)

Post by FreeSpirit_uk

Over the years I have encountered relatively little anti-semitism in
South Africa until the recent waves of anti-Muslim feelings. But
what has been interesting to note is how quickly the pro-Israeli
feelings have subsided into apathy on the subject, only to be
resurrected by anti-Arab feelings. Our new government certainly
ditched Israel very early on in the process.

I have only once personally experienced anti-semitism. It was a year or two
ago in north London, where together with some of my colleagues we were
headed on foot to a restaurant. Some of our group were very clearly
Jewish - actually Israelis visiting the UK for a few days. We passed a
Muslim looking man who suddenly lashed out at one of them. Before the
strike could hit, the Israeli had the guy pinned to the side of the car like
a squashed fly. After a few minutes of thinking about what to do with him
we decided to let him go - we didn't want our evening spoiled but this
incident. The controlled manner in which he was released was very
impressive - there was just no ways that he would have been able to pull a
knife out on us or anything like that. I subsequently discovered that all
Israelis undergo training from young in self defence techniques known as
Krav Maga. I was so impressed that today my wife, children and myself are
receiving ongoing training in it. As a footnote to this, the self control
which the Israeli's demonstrated was entirely praiseworthy. The Muslim was
not roughed up in any way - he was only subdued. Good people.

In Israel military service is mandatory and in some places training for
self defense takes place long before service. Living under constant
threat of attack for nearly 60 years will do that to a people. I hope
you are correct about the growing support for Israel in the UK.

Shalom
Mimi

[FreeSpirit_uk]

Post by FreeSpirit_uk

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians,

Syrians

and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for

political

reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity....

yes,

the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only

tactical

purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the
continuing battle against Israel."
- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and

member of its

Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)

White South Africans tend towards Jewish Israeli sympathies usually,
simply because our history inclines us that way. For starters,
Afrikaners identified strongly with the Biblical Jews as "people of
the book". Then later in our history Israel was one of the few
countries which did open business, including arms deals, with us
during the apartheid era, and hence was seen as a friend. Another
thing is that Jews were perceived first as white, then only as Jews
in apartheid South Africa.

There is also a growing support for Israel in the UK. The Islamic

Funny how that growing support hasn't changed the BBC from basically being
a mouthpiece for Muslims.

There have been lots of other programmes on the BBC that show them in a less
favourable light, some very hair-raising stuff too. But we have to remember
that there is a sizable Muslim minority in the UK, and while many (or even
most) Britons don't agree with them they are nonetheless entitled to have
their say. I personally prefer to switch over to the Simpsons on such
occasions.... Far more coherent stuff :-)

Post by FreeSpirit_uk
terrorists have validated what the Israelis have been telling us all for
years.

We hate to say we told you so :)

Okay, smugness :-)

Post by FreeSpirit_uk

Over the years I have encountered relatively little anti-semitism in
South Africa until the recent waves of anti-Muslim feelings. But
what has been interesting to note is how quickly the pro-Israeli
feelings have subsided into apathy on the subject, only to be
resurrected by anti-Arab feelings. Our new government certainly
ditched Israel very early on in the process.

I have only once personally experienced anti-semitism. It was a year or
two ago in north London, where together with some of my colleagues we
were headed on foot to a restaurant. Some of our group were very clearly
Jewish - actually Israelis visiting the UK for a few days. We passed a
Muslim looking man who suddenly lashed out at one of them. Before the
strike could hit, the Israeli had the guy pinned to the side of the car
like a squashed fly. After a few minutes of thinking about what to do
with him we decided to let him go - we didn't want our evening spoiled
but this incident. The controlled manner in which he was released was
very impressive - there was just no ways that he would have been able to
pull a knife out on us or anything like that. I subsequently discovered
that all Israelis undergo training from young in self defence techniques
known as Krav Maga. I was so impressed that today my wife, children and
myself are receiving ongoing training in it. As a footnote to this, the
self control which the Israeli's demonstrated was entirely praiseworthy.
The Muslim was not roughed up in any way - he was only subdued. Good
people.

In Israel military service is mandatory and in some places training for
self defense takes place long before service. Living under constant threat
of attack for nearly 60 years will do that to a people. I hope you are
correct about the growing support for Israel in the UK.
Shalom
Mimi

I think the main person who demonstrated his skills lived/lives in one of
the "occupied territories", so yes he probably learnt self defence from
young.

Good Luck!

FS

[Miriam Cohen]

Post by FreeSpirit_uk

Post by FreeSpirit_uk

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians,

Syrians

and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for

political

reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity....

yes,

the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only

tactical

purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the
continuing battle against Israel."
- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and

member of its

Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)

White South Africans tend towards Jewish Israeli sympathies usually,
simply because our history inclines us that way. For starters,
Afrikaners identified strongly with the Biblical Jews as "people of
the book". Then later in our history Israel was one of the few
countries which did open business, including arms deals, with us
during the apartheid era, and hence was seen as a friend. Another
thing is that Jews were perceived first as white, then only as Jews
in apartheid South Africa.

There is also a growing support for Israel in the UK. The Islamic

Funny how that growing support hasn't changed the BBC from basically being
a mouthpiece for Muslims.

There have been lots of other programmes on the BBC that show them in a less
favourable light, some very hair-raising stuff too. But we have to remember

I guess we don't get those on this side of the pond.

Post by FreeSpirit_uk
that there is a sizable Muslim minority in the UK, and while many (or even
most) Britons don't agree with them they are nonetheless entitled to have
their say. I personally prefer to switch over to the Simpsons on such
occasions.... Far more coherent stuff :-)

I haven't watched the Simpsons since they were a tiny segment on Tracy
Ulman. Whatever happened to her?

Post by FreeSpirit_uk

Post by FreeSpirit_uk
terrorists have validated what the Israelis have been telling us all for
years.

We hate to say we told you so :)

Okay, smugness :-)

:)

Post by FreeSpirit_uk

Post by FreeSpirit_uk

Over the years I have encountered relatively little anti-semitism in
South Africa until the recent waves of anti-Muslim feelings. But
what has been interesting to note is how quickly the pro-Israeli
feelings have subsided into apathy on the subject, only to be
resurrected by anti-Arab feelings. Our new government certainly
ditched Israel very early on in the process.

I have only once personally experienced anti-semitism. It was a year or
two ago in north London, where together with some of my colleagues we
were headed on foot to a restaurant. Some of our group were very clearly
Jewish - actually Israelis visiting the UK for a few days. We passed a
Muslim looking man who suddenly lashed out at one of them. Before the
strike could hit, the Israeli had the guy pinned to the side of the car
like a squashed fly. After a few minutes of thinking about what to do
with him we decided to let him go - we didn't want our evening spoiled
but this incident. The controlled manner in which he was released was
very impressive - there was just no ways that he would have been able to
pull a knife out on us or anything like that. I subsequently discovered
that all Israelis undergo training from young in self defence techniques
known as Krav Maga. I was so impressed that today my wife, children and
myself are receiving ongoing training in it. As a footnote to this, the
self control which the Israeli's demonstrated was entirely praiseworthy.
The Muslim was not roughed up in any way - he was only subdued. Good
people.

In Israel military service is mandatory and in some places training for
self defense takes place long before service. Living under constant threat
of attack for nearly 60 years will do that to a people. I hope you are
correct about the growing support for Israel in the UK.
Shalom
Mimi

I think the main person who demonstrated his skills lived/lives in one of
the "occupied territories", so yes he probably learnt self defence from
young.

Probably, but you must stop using that false statement "occupied
territories". These places are land gained from other countries who
attacked Israel, none of which was ever ruled by so called
"palestinians". Israel had Gaza which previously belonged to Egypt, it
was a mistake to turn it over to the "palestinians", look what they've
done with it. The Golan Heights was Lebanese and the West Bank was
Jordanian and after seeing what the so called "palestinians" did to Gaza
the King of Jordan has *DEMANDED* that Israel *NOT* vacate it. At no
point in any time have these places ever been ruled by or belonged to so
called "palestinians". I find it astounding how few people now anything
about the history of the Holy Land and yet don't allow their ignorance
of the subject to temper their "thoughts" or actions because of that.

Post by FreeSpirit_uk
Good Luck!

To you, too

[FreeSpirit_uk]

<snip>

Post by Miriam Cohen

Post by FreeSpirit_uk
I think the main person who demonstrated his skills lived/lives in one of
the "occupied territories", so yes he probably learnt self defence from
young.

Probably, but you must stop using that false statement "occupied
territories". These places are land gained from other countries who
attacked Israel, none of which was ever ruled by so called "palestinians".
Israel had Gaza which previously belonged to Egypt, it was a mistake to
turn it over to the "palestinians", look what they've done with it. The
Golan Heights was Lebanese and the West Bank was Jordanian and after
seeing what the so called "palestinians" did to Gaza the King of Jordan
has *DEMANDED* that Israel *NOT* vacate it. At no point in any time have
these places ever been ruled by or belonged to so called "palestinians". I
find it astounding how few people now anything about the history of the
Holy Land and yet don't allow their ignorance of the subject to temper
their "thoughts" or actions because of that.

That's why I put it in quotes. Interestingly, that is the general term that
is used in the UK media to describe them. Perhaps "contested territories"
is a better description?

The king of Jordan demanded? I've never heard of that before. Do you have
any impartial/well respected sources to confirm that?

Regards,

FS

<snip>

[Miriam Cohen]

Post by FreeSpirit_uk
<snip>

Post by Miriam Cohen

Post by FreeSpirit_uk
I think the main person who demonstrated his skills lived/lives in one of
the "occupied territories", so yes he probably learnt self defence from
young.

Probably, but you must stop using that false statement "occupied
territories". These places are land gained from other countries who
attacked Israel, none of which was ever ruled by so called "palestinians".
Israel had Gaza which previously belonged to Egypt, it was a mistake to
turn it over to the "palestinians", look what they've done with it. The
Golan Heights was Lebanese and the West Bank was Jordanian and after
seeing what the so called "palestinians" did to Gaza the King of Jordan
has *DEMANDED* that Israel *NOT* vacate it. At no point in any time have
these places ever been ruled by or belonged to so called "palestinians". I
find it astounding how few people now anything about the history of the
Holy Land and yet don't allow their ignorance of the subject to temper
their "thoughts" or actions because of that.

That's why I put it in quotes.

You're correct, my bad, sorry. :)

Post by FreeSpirit_uk
Interestingly, that is the general term that
is used in the UK media to describe them. Perhaps "contested territories"
is a better description?

I think that is also a false statement; Egypt doesn't ask for Gaza back,
Jordan doesn't want the West Bank back and Lebanon has been too bust
fighting Syria to think about the Golan Heights much. The misconception
here is that these places were EVER "owned" or ruled by so called
"palestinians". They never were, in fact up until 1920 the *ONLY* people
who self identified as "palestinian" were the Jews living under Ottoman
rule in Judea and Eretz Israel. These so called "palestinians" are the
only ones "contesting" who the land belongs to and of all the different
groups involved theirs is the *ONLY* group that has no rights to these
lands. See?

Post by FreeSpirit_uk
The king of Jordan demanded? I've never heard of that before. Do you have
any impartial/well respected sources to confirm that?

Ha'aretz and the Jerusalem Post have English translations online. I read
it in Ha'aretz some time back. I doubt it would have made news in the UK
as they're currently more partial to the Israeli Arabs than the
Jordanian Arabs. Funny, if "palestinians" hadn't tried to over throw the
legitimate government of Jordan in 1970 they'd be allowed in Jordan and
could have their home there. It's odd, I'm always hearing from lefties
and liberals how bad Israel is for keeping "palestinians" in refugee
camps, what I never hear from them is any recognition that these refugee
camps aren't in *ISRAEL* or that Israel has no control over refugee
camps in Arabic countries. So called "palestinians are not allowed to
walk freely in any Arabic country not in Jordan, or Lebanon, or Syria,
or Egypt (which technically isn't an Arabic country), not in Saudi
Arabia, etc but it's *ISRAEL* that's "oppressing" them.

[Moira de Swardt]

Post by FreeSpirit_uk
I have only once personally experienced anti-semitism. It was a year or two
ago in north London, where together with some of my colleagues we were
headed on foot to a restaurant. Some of our group were very

clearly

Post by FreeSpirit_uk
Jewish - actually Israelis visiting the UK for a few days. We

passed a

Post by FreeSpirit_uk
Muslim looking man who suddenly lashed out at one of them. Before the
strike could hit, the Israeli had the guy pinned to the side of the car like
a squashed fly. After a few minutes of thinking about what to do with him
we decided to let him go - we didn't want our evening spoiled but this
incident. The controlled manner in which he was released was very
impressive - there was just no ways that he would have been able to pull a
knife out on us or anything like that. I subsequently discovered that all
Israelis undergo training from young in self defence techniques known as
Krav Maga. I was so impressed that today my wife, children and myself are
receiving ongoing training in it. As a footnote to this, the self control
which the Israeli's demonstrated was entirely praiseworthy. The Muslim was
not roughed up in any way - he was only subdued. Good people.

I worked for a man who was, and still is, a non-observant Jew. He
has a surname which is not obviously Jewish, and has no particular
features or colouring associated with Jews. He tells a story that
when he was at varsity one of his "good" friends once made some very
crude remarks about Jews, concluding with a comment that Jews all
have a peculiar stink and that he could smell them from twenty
metres away. When told that my boss was Jewish his friend's mouth
apparently hung open and colour flushed his face and a stammer
developed as he apologised. My boss did his best to ensure from
then on that he never got within twenty metres of this former
friend.

Another Jewish friend commented that he'd once been called a "dirty
Jew" as a child, a taunt which he completely failed to understand
because he was as clean as anyone could wish to be, and certainly
cleaner than many of the other boys because he didn't enjoy rough
boys games where one became dirty.

It's good to live in a society where the worst anti-Semitism to
impact the lives of Jewish friends has been an isolated bigoted
comment. Hopefully we will get to that point with anti-Muslim and
other racist and sexist sentiments as well.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.

[Miriam Cohen]

Post by Moira de Swardt
It's good to live in a society where the worst anti-Semitism to
impact the lives of Jewish friends has been an isolated bigoted
comment. Hopefully we will get to that point with anti-Muslim and
other racist and sexist sentiments as well.

Point of order: Islamic adherents (Muslims) are religious, there is no
"Muslim race". Islam, like Judaism, is a religion followed by many
different peopleS. I imagine that the artist formerly known as Cat
Stevens would laugh in your face for your referring to anti - Islamic
sentiments as "racism". Also, there are no more sexist people around
than Muslims. Apparently you are ignorant on the subject of "honor
killings" why are you lefties and liberals turning a blind eye to the
vast number of human rights violations by Islamofascists while whining
about false violations by Israel?

[Moira de Swardt]

Post by Miriam Cohen

Post by Moira de Swardt
It's good to live in a society where the worst anti-Semitism to
impact the lives of Jewish friends has been an isolated bigoted
comment. Hopefully we will get to that point with anti-Muslim and
other racist and sexist sentiments as well.

Point of order: Islamic adherents (Muslims) are religious, there is no
"Muslim race". Islam, like Judaism, is a religion followed by many
different peopleS. I imagine that the artist formerly known as Cat
Stevens would laugh in your face for your referring to anti -

Islamic

Post by Miriam Cohen
sentiments as "racism". Also, there are no more sexist people

around

Post by Miriam Cohen
than Muslims. Apparently you are ignorant on the subject of "honor
killings" why are you lefties and liberals turning a blind eye to the
vast number of human rights violations by Islamofascists while

whining

Post by Miriam Cohen
about false violations by Israel?

Bigotry is bigotry, whether against Semites (Jews and Muslims) or
people of races other than ones own or people of a different sex.
*That* is the point I was trying to make.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.

[sportsfan]

Post by Moira de Swardt
Bigotry is bigotry, whether against Semites (Jews and Muslims) or
people of races other than ones own or people of a different sex.
*That* is the point I was trying to make.

I totally agree Moira when people become defensive about their
race or religion they tend to generalise and stereotype the group
that they see as their enemies. I worked for a Jewish man for
many years, he was probably the kindest and most generous
man I've ever met, not what is normally seen as a Jewish trait.
Whilst working for him I was living with a Muslim woman who
was such a passive and peace loving person, which again is
not the norm for a stereotyped Muslim. I find it incredulous that
certain people can not believe that in any race or religion you
get fanatics whom you can never satisfy or control whilst the
majority of people wish for nothing more than peace and
security.

[Moira de Swardt]

Post by sportsfan
I totally agree Moira when people become defensive about their
race or religion they tend to generalise and stereotype the group
that they see as their enemies. I worked for a Jewish man for
many years, he was probably the kindest and most generous
man I've ever met, not what is normally seen as a Jewish trait.

Interesting this perception. It results from medieval times where
the work opportunities for educated Jews was restricted to the
mercantile field (and a few others which were not seen as suitable
work for Christians, such as medicine). Usury is forbidden to
strict Christians (and by Church law of the time - don't know if
this has changed) but not to Jews, so Jews did the money lending.
There were no banks yet. I suppose one is predisposed to dislike
people one owes money to, and regardless of whether one owes them
money or not, banks are horrible money grabbing, hideous, morally
disgusting places.

The reality is that Jews have the same proportions of generous and
stingy people that the rest of the population have. Statistically
religious people, of all religions, tend to be more generous with
both their time and money than non-religious people, often finding
in this a way of making offerings to their deity.


--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.